Nice overview and yes, a great opportunity for the cultural-political-economic distinction.
Might be worth noting that it's not just the political that trumps the cultural all the time, it's the economic that controls the political. In the US "business" is still fighting the New Deal, and it has been quite comfortable with the cultivation of a white-supremacist "alt-right" in order to shore up a "conservative" party which, as the Senator from Florida recently affirmed, wants to destroy not just Obamacare but Medicare and Social Security. Why? Because crony/selfish capitalism depends on inequalities to make "opportunities" for the "free" (unrestrained) marketers. [Yes, jamming a few points together there.] So... does Israel have an economic sector? What's it up to?
There's a good book for the Anglo background from which, unintended, independent Israeli statehood emerged:
'The cool, aloof Balfour was anything but an Old Testament character himself. But of all the Englishmen who at one time or another helped along the Return he was possibly the only one interested in it from the point of view of the Jews. To him they were neither tools of the Christian millennium nor agents of a business imperialism, but simply exiles who should be given back, in payment of Christianity’s “immeasurable debt,” their homeland. Not just any land, but the old land. Why Palestine? “The answer is,” he wrote, “that the position of the Jews is unique. For them race, religion and country are inter-related as they are inter-related in the case of no other religion and no other country on earth.' [Tuchman, Barbara W.. Bible and Sword (p. 339). Random House]
So regarding economy mixing onto the state here in Israel. I just have two indications:
one, one example concerns the media, which is ideally a cultural thing... These days ex prime minister Netanyahu is standing trail because he allegedly benefited media owners while functioning as a regulator in what we call the office for communications. Media today is first and foremost a business (mixture of economy and culture): they wanted more money. Netanyahu wanted influence on public opinion for political power. Hence, the mix of media and economy met the mix of government and economy. The government owned a communication company that was sold, as an additional organ, to the media giants. In return Netanyahu got some control over what appeared on the existing news website (of the communication giants). We can see how corruption arose from the mixtures...
Secondly, a very big general issue. The national state here regards itself as an economic entity... it is more or less trivial to people that it is run like a business: Maximizing "profit" from the different taxes, trying to promote the national businesses so to make more money, and this of course puts it in competition and conflict with other national economies that perceive themselves similarly. So this is a big issue concerning the entanglement of state and economy, that I would like to go more deeply into and grasp better.
Those are helpful pictures, Omni - thanks for sharing.
It's interesting how so much of threefolding can be understood simply through an expanded understanding of the idea of "conflicts of interest." I say "expanded" because it's not just when someone makes money from a situation, which is what it seems like it's often reduced to (for instance, when a lawmaker is regulating the very industries they're invested in), but whenever they're able to maintain or grow their power in some way (i.e. they're able to stay in political office by manipulating the press, or they're able to have their religious or economic interests prevail by taking over the state, etc.). I think the term "conflict of interest" actually does cover any form of "interest," and not just money, but it seems like it's often reduced to money...
There's also a kind of "soft" version of this, where the person isn't driven by the desire for profit or power, but legitimately thinks that they're doing good. For instance, a business person might think it's helpful to bring their business skills into the realm of making laws about human rights, or an idealistic politician might think they should dictate what teachers teach based on what they think would be fair and just in terms of rights. They don't realize they're actually overstepping boundaries and applying their capacities in a realm where they no longer apply. This soft version of a conflict of interest I call "misplaced ideals" in my course on threefolding. It could also be called "misplaced expertise," but I like how "ideals" shows how someone can be meaning to do good, but just misunderstanding the situation.
You mentioned Netanyahu and the state promoting national businesses, which is pretty intriguing. If you do go more deeply into that topic and find any interesting articles in that direction, I'd definitely be interested so please do keep me in mind.
It's an interesting quote and helpful to think about how the Israeli situation is so specific. The religious element is definitely more emphasized than with other nations - the explicitly "religious homeland" gives the countryside itself a spiritual aspect that almost certainly doesn't exist with the same intensity in the Italian or French countryside. They'll of course also have their monuments and "sacred" sites, though probably less overtly religious (like the home of Dante or Joan of Arc) as well as less relevant to their modern experience (like the ancient sacred sites - say Delphi in Greece or Stonehenge in England).
There’s also the long history of exile within Judaism and, alongside that, the fact that other groups have lived on that land in large numbers. It creates a kind of mixed history that we don’t really see in the same way elsewhere. Also the fact that the land is sacred ground for other religions as well. That all creates a really specific and intense dynamic.
I don’t know too much about the economic situation there, though I assume it’s similar to much of what’s happening elsewhere around the world (crony capitalism, oligarchs, etc.) I imagine it would be a whole article in itself… :)
Thank you Seth. As an Israeli I can tell you that this is very inspiring. The light of threefolding is shinning bright and clear, and I feel that there is significance just in seeing a clear vision, just in feeling it as a comprehensive answer, even if the situation today seems so far from all this - there is still power in the very feeling, which is similar to the feeling of finding an answer to a complicated and confusing riddle.
I love, as well, the way you start from what may look like a "regular" political opinion, but then slowly move into a meta-political sphere - a sphere from which, I believe, real answers come.
That's great to hear, Omri. Yeah, it's amazing how short-sighted the "regular" opinions are when it comes to the nation-state. We badly need the meta view in order to make any sense of it at all. That said, I'd definitely recommend the Andre Liebich paper that I link to in the article - he gives a really concise and comprehensive overview of just how muddled our thinking is on this topic (and he's also got a book coming out this summer - "Cultural Nations and Political Sates" - that I'm excited to check out).
I know it's hard to imagine transitioning to a state that doesn't favor any one nation - especially in Israel where it was so explicitly formed for that purpose. But I think if we have a picture of the kind of social ideals we truly want to work towards, then we can slowly begin to untangle the knots that have formed, not just in Israel but everywhere.
Nice overview and yes, a great opportunity for the cultural-political-economic distinction.
Might be worth noting that it's not just the political that trumps the cultural all the time, it's the economic that controls the political. In the US "business" is still fighting the New Deal, and it has been quite comfortable with the cultivation of a white-supremacist "alt-right" in order to shore up a "conservative" party which, as the Senator from Florida recently affirmed, wants to destroy not just Obamacare but Medicare and Social Security. Why? Because crony/selfish capitalism depends on inequalities to make "opportunities" for the "free" (unrestrained) marketers. [Yes, jamming a few points together there.] So... does Israel have an economic sector? What's it up to?
There's a good book for the Anglo background from which, unintended, independent Israeli statehood emerged:
'The cool, aloof Balfour was anything but an Old Testament character himself. But of all the Englishmen who at one time or another helped along the Return he was possibly the only one interested in it from the point of view of the Jews. To him they were neither tools of the Christian millennium nor agents of a business imperialism, but simply exiles who should be given back, in payment of Christianity’s “immeasurable debt,” their homeland. Not just any land, but the old land. Why Palestine? “The answer is,” he wrote, “that the position of the Jews is unique. For them race, religion and country are inter-related as they are inter-related in the case of no other religion and no other country on earth.' [Tuchman, Barbara W.. Bible and Sword (p. 339). Random House]
Hi John and all,
So regarding economy mixing onto the state here in Israel. I just have two indications:
one, one example concerns the media, which is ideally a cultural thing... These days ex prime minister Netanyahu is standing trail because he allegedly benefited media owners while functioning as a regulator in what we call the office for communications. Media today is first and foremost a business (mixture of economy and culture): they wanted more money. Netanyahu wanted influence on public opinion for political power. Hence, the mix of media and economy met the mix of government and economy. The government owned a communication company that was sold, as an additional organ, to the media giants. In return Netanyahu got some control over what appeared on the existing news website (of the communication giants). We can see how corruption arose from the mixtures...
Secondly, a very big general issue. The national state here regards itself as an economic entity... it is more or less trivial to people that it is run like a business: Maximizing "profit" from the different taxes, trying to promote the national businesses so to make more money, and this of course puts it in competition and conflict with other national economies that perceive themselves similarly. So this is a big issue concerning the entanglement of state and economy, that I would like to go more deeply into and grasp better.
Those are helpful pictures, Omni - thanks for sharing.
It's interesting how so much of threefolding can be understood simply through an expanded understanding of the idea of "conflicts of interest." I say "expanded" because it's not just when someone makes money from a situation, which is what it seems like it's often reduced to (for instance, when a lawmaker is regulating the very industries they're invested in), but whenever they're able to maintain or grow their power in some way (i.e. they're able to stay in political office by manipulating the press, or they're able to have their religious or economic interests prevail by taking over the state, etc.). I think the term "conflict of interest" actually does cover any form of "interest," and not just money, but it seems like it's often reduced to money...
There's also a kind of "soft" version of this, where the person isn't driven by the desire for profit or power, but legitimately thinks that they're doing good. For instance, a business person might think it's helpful to bring their business skills into the realm of making laws about human rights, or an idealistic politician might think they should dictate what teachers teach based on what they think would be fair and just in terms of rights. They don't realize they're actually overstepping boundaries and applying their capacities in a realm where they no longer apply. This soft version of a conflict of interest I call "misplaced ideals" in my course on threefolding. It could also be called "misplaced expertise," but I like how "ideals" shows how someone can be meaning to do good, but just misunderstanding the situation.
You mentioned Netanyahu and the state promoting national businesses, which is pretty intriguing. If you do go more deeply into that topic and find any interesting articles in that direction, I'd definitely be interested so please do keep me in mind.
It's an interesting quote and helpful to think about how the Israeli situation is so specific. The religious element is definitely more emphasized than with other nations - the explicitly "religious homeland" gives the countryside itself a spiritual aspect that almost certainly doesn't exist with the same intensity in the Italian or French countryside. They'll of course also have their monuments and "sacred" sites, though probably less overtly religious (like the home of Dante or Joan of Arc) as well as less relevant to their modern experience (like the ancient sacred sites - say Delphi in Greece or Stonehenge in England).
There’s also the long history of exile within Judaism and, alongside that, the fact that other groups have lived on that land in large numbers. It creates a kind of mixed history that we don’t really see in the same way elsewhere. Also the fact that the land is sacred ground for other religions as well. That all creates a really specific and intense dynamic.
I don’t know too much about the economic situation there, though I assume it’s similar to much of what’s happening elsewhere around the world (crony capitalism, oligarchs, etc.) I imagine it would be a whole article in itself… :)
Thank you Seth. As an Israeli I can tell you that this is very inspiring. The light of threefolding is shinning bright and clear, and I feel that there is significance just in seeing a clear vision, just in feeling it as a comprehensive answer, even if the situation today seems so far from all this - there is still power in the very feeling, which is similar to the feeling of finding an answer to a complicated and confusing riddle.
I love, as well, the way you start from what may look like a "regular" political opinion, but then slowly move into a meta-political sphere - a sphere from which, I believe, real answers come.
That's great to hear, Omri. Yeah, it's amazing how short-sighted the "regular" opinions are when it comes to the nation-state. We badly need the meta view in order to make any sense of it at all. That said, I'd definitely recommend the Andre Liebich paper that I link to in the article - he gives a really concise and comprehensive overview of just how muddled our thinking is on this topic (and he's also got a book coming out this summer - "Cultural Nations and Political Sates" - that I'm excited to check out).
I know it's hard to imagine transitioning to a state that doesn't favor any one nation - especially in Israel where it was so explicitly formed for that purpose. But I think if we have a picture of the kind of social ideals we truly want to work towards, then we can slowly begin to untangle the knots that have formed, not just in Israel but everywhere.